There used to be a show on Nickelodeon called Turkey TV. I really don’t remember that much about it. Anyone?
But that’s not what I came here to talk about. I came here to talk about the draft. Actually, there’s a song that has been a Thanksgiving tradition for me. Every year, my family would be driving on Thanksgiving to get to relatives’ houses, and we would always hear the song Alice’s Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie on the radio at noon.
It’s a song about Alice. And a restautant. More importantly, it’s about the idiocy of the military. The song ends on the point of a guy, who was on trial for littering, attempting to join the army. The authorities questioned his morality, after all, they wouldn’t want a man with questionable ethics to join the army.
This song comes at an interesting time this year. It’s definitely a song about peace at a time when we are “supposed” to blindly follow the president of this country in his war against Afghanistan. It’s interesting to hear people claim that as Americans, it is our duty to support our leaders. It had always been my impression that our country was built (for example, see the Constitution of the United States) on the foundry of the “people” being able to question those in power.
Well, if I’ve never mentioned it before, I am now. I truly dislike politics. Personally, I think by bombing Afghanistan, we are no less evil than those who attacked us.
Well, that’s enough of that. I actually meant to write about my Thanksgiving. I had dinner with my dad and his girlfriend. We talked about money. Mostly about the fact that I have none. I’m going on vacation in a few weeks and it’s going to be amazingly expensive and I have no idea how I am going to pay for any of it, at a time where I don’t even have enough money to pay my bills. Sigh.
It’s almost impossible to justify war, and yet, psychologically, you have to make some justification in order to support whatever it is you are doing. So, we say things like, “We are better because we have honorably declared our intentions to attack, and are trying to hit only military targets.” Yes, that is a bit better. But I’m sure we’re still killing lots of innocent civilians, or at minimum seriously disrupting their lives, so it doesn’t really make us any better. But at the same time, can we justify just sitting back and doing nothing? Or trying to go after a man who only understands violence by means of diplomacy? That wouldn’t get us anywhere, either. And then, of course, if we just sent in ground troops without bombing first, we’d lose A LOT more ground troops. It’s a difficult thing to even talk about, because there becomes no right or wrong. I think this is why so many people try to justify it in terms of religion, because religion allows them to easily say, “We are right and they are wrong because God says it is so.” Murky stuff…
hi. Yeah…. what exactly were we thinking when we decided to go to Arizona…?
Remember me Spike? How are you? Just browsing through space today and came upon your journal (or not-journal). Question-what would you, President Spike, have done? I submit that war is indeed a sin, in a religious and sociological sense, but sometimes a necessary one. As killing the intruder that has broken into your house is still murder, it is as justifiable as any murder can be. I think of WWII. Would you equate us with Hitler who killed innocent Jews, among others, with the Allies who surely killed countless innocents who had no tie to or love for the Third Reich? I would hope not.
While it’s perfectly fine for one to not like politics or indeed be entirely apathetic about them, as most Americans are, if you look around the world you see what a supreme luxury this is. Most people’s existences are directly linked to them. We have it so good here-whether or not one likes how we arrived here or how we conduct ourselves now-and that truly IS something to be thankful for.
Hi, Nick, I surely do remember you. I’m glad you came across my journal. I hope you come by more often.
Anyway, I’m glad I’m not the President and I’m glad I don’t have to make the decisions he does. Why is killing an intruder in your house justifiable when there are other options? I would not completely equate us with Hitler, who is responsible for the death of 12 million individuals through the incarnations of the Third Reich, but I do believe if there is any possible way for the lives of innocents–and the guilty–to be spared, then that is an option we should pursue.
I am very thankful for all that I, and we as a people, have, but I am digusted by a lot that goes on in the world, in and out of this country.
I don’t have all the answers. If I did, I’d be President. Bush Jr. did what he had to do. Retaliation is what this country felt was appropriate, and the President acted in the best interests of the majority of the country.
Majorities are not always right, and speaking for myself, I certainly don’t always agree with the majority.
Not attempting to start an argument, but I’m curious…if an intruder breaks into your house and threatens violence against you, what are your “other options” beyond violence against him (or her)?
I didn’t say violence was out of the question. The issue here is death and killing, not violence. In extreme cases of self-defense, maybe death is an option. Bombing a country far away from us is not an act of self-defense, it’s an act of retaliation.
I suppose that’s probably true, although I suppose self-defense is all relative when you’re talking on a global scale. And then there’s the theory of “the best defense is a good offense.” I don’t know. I’m with you…I’m glad I’m not the one who has to make these decisions.
Ay. Haven’t we had this discussion before? Nick- actually you’re quite wrong. Murdering an intruder is NOT in fact as justifiable as you mistakenly believe. If someone breaks into your house, for the love of God I hope you don’t kill him because the last time I checked that isn’t justifiable homicide in this country…. Unless you can prove that this person was attempting to physically injur you. You can’t kill someone in this country because they entered your property without permission. You can’t kill someone who is in the process of stealing your *stuff*. You can only claim self defense IF you can prove 1) the intruder was attempting to kill you 2) the danger was immediate, AND 3) you had no other options for escape or defending yourself.
Thus, if Intruder Man enters your house, steals your television and is halfway out the door when you spot him, you can’t justifiably kill him.
If Intruder enters your house, *says* he’s going to kill you but obviously does not have any means of doing so, you can’t justifiably kill him.
And, if Intruder enters your house, says he’s going to kill you and is wielding a knife, BUT you can easily escape through the door, You can’t justifiably kill him.
Whether you think those things are morally right or not, it’s the law, and you can’t change the law in order to make yourself feel better about your support for retribution against innocent people in Afghanistan.
RAAAAR!!! Nothing like a little dose of ingornace in the morning to start your day off right.
Rrrrright. Anyway. I’m here again! I was thinking that I wouldn’t have to spell my analogy out in such painstaking detail, as space is limited and I thought the parallels would be obvious. But- If an intruder (terrorists) comes into your house (this country) and threatens to kill (pre-11th) or does kill (11th) your family (your fellow citizens, including two people I knew,albeit casually), and threatens continual bloodshed (post 11th), you would indeed be justified in murder. Whew. Sorry about taking up so much of your space Spike, but someone needs a shot of espesso. Better make it a double.
This is not a perfect parallel, as it only justifies the murders of the directly guilty parties, and not the innocents. That is, obviously, much more difficult, if not immpossible to justify. We are imperfect beings. We do imperfect things. Any endevour of ours will always be to some degree imperfect. The terrible institution of war is deeply flawed by design, and while the flaw by which innocents are killed can be lessened, (why I,in the minority opinion, was for early ground troops), it cannot be eliminated. The frustation with war is frustation with our imperfect selves, which mankind has wrestled with since their were men. As long as there are imperfect men there will be imperfect institutions;war being doubly imperfect as it is an imperfect idea carried out by imperfect men. It is, however, a peculiarily human institution that will always be with us. And we will always hate it. Ah, the eternal dichotomy of the human spirit.
Eh. I think my eyes just glazed over while reading that. Anyway, you can’t kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong. Bombing innocent people in Afghanistan is less about self-protection than it is about retribution. And retribution isn’t justifiable means for murder, whether you’re talking about your home or your country. We have not been able to identify people who are here, on our soil, with viable means of killing us that we can’t protect ourselves against. All we’re doing is blindly shooting in the hopes that some of the bullets will hit some of the people we’re after.
NO, I am not saying that we are completely safe. I’m not saying that I think all of the people who want to kill us died on the planes on September 11. There is no doubt in my mind that there are people in this country today who were connected to those events and who have other plans under way. There is also no doubt that there are many people in Afghanistan and other countries who applaud what happened and who would have done the same thing. That does not give us the right to kill them, or to kill innocent people in an effort to find “the evil doers.” We can’t kill them until we find them, and if we do find them, there are alternatives to killing them. There is no reason whatsoever that another innocent person should die in this “war.”
As far as your suggestion that humans are imperfect… of course they are. People make mistakes all the time. But what is happening today isn’t a mistake. They are thought-out plans. Premeditated, one might say. That’s not a mistake, and it’s not a mark of imperfection. It’s a mark of arrogance and fear and lack of regard for the lives of people who are different from “us.”
I don’t have an easy solution. I don’t know what the best thing to do is. I believe that the government has the responsibility to protect our country and our people. But I also believe that as human beings we all have the responsibility to protect the lives of innocent people around the world. Both of those things have to be taken into consideration. To say that our actions in killing innocent people are just imperfect endeavors being carried out by imperfect beings is a cop out… a means for shifting responsibility for the decisions we’ve made.
The only problem I see with that, Alissa, is that politics is far more complicated than just right and wrong…especially global politics. Yes, what we are doing is retribution, but it is also a show of power and a general message. Does this sound like a bunch of (excuse the phrase) dick-waving? Absolutely. Unfortunately, if we get attacked and do nothing about it, then the people who do that sort of thing will think that they can easily get away with it, and they will probably do it again. Now, will they do it again, anyway? Probably. But maybe they’ll think twice about it. Regardless, as far as politics are concerned, we cannot do nothing. Unfortunately, running out of the door is not an option….
The fact that the wolrd exist a certain way (for example, the need to flex our muscles to scare other countries) is not an excuse to act a certain way. Yes humans are imperfect, but that is not an excuse to not strive to be better people than we are. If we can just write off our attitudes by saying, “Hey, it’s okay. We’re not perfect,” then why do anything to the best of our abilities?
By the way, our “show of power” has not succeeded, unless the goal was to make countries around the world think less of our great country and of our elected leaders.
I surely wasn’t saying that we should not strive to be better than what we are, just that that is, to a degree, fruitless. Perhaps this manner of thinking is just the Catholic in me. “It’s best to accept (and make the best of?) what you cannot change” and all that. Prepare your fragile eyes: This is my oddly humanistic take-that, you are correct, we must strive to be perfect even though it will never even come close to happening. Which we must accept. But not accept. That’s what is so wonderful (not the right word) about this discussion-it really gets to our core selves, and the contradictions in all of us. You both are very insightful.
I don’t necessarily agree with our government’s actions. But I don’t disagree either. And I think that everyone is trying to make it a very black and white issue, a strict issue of “Right” and “Wrong”, which is why all these mostly useless analogies or parallels are trying to be drawn.
If a person speaks Spanish, or German or French or Hebrew, attempts to speak English to them and have them understand anything you said will be largely fruitless and unsuccessful. You have to speak to them in a language they understand. And the Taliban — and the “innocent” people that support it — doesn’t understand “peaceful” and “tribunal” and “surrender” and “fairness” and “humanity” — they understand violence and blind, misguided self-righteousness. Men who would drive planes filled with people into buildings for their cause will not sit in a room to talk amicably about a compromise.
Does it sadden me that innocent people are dying as we pursue this wholly evil man and his wholly evil followers? Yes. Do I know of a better way? No.
Right. I agree with you, Julie. It’s definately not black or white. And yes, we should strive to be better, but change has to happen slowly. Again, we can’t NOT respond to something like this. And while you may say that other countries don’t respect us, you have no proof of that, and the fact remains that we are still the most powerful country in the world, and that other countries, whether they agree with us or not, are joining with us in our fight because it is in their best political interest to do so. There is so much to politics that we really don’t understand because we’re not involved in it, but the point is that everything that these people do or say has consequences, and equally important is their silence. It’s a really tough line to walk, I imagine…
Darren- you’re right, no one has proof of what another person thinks of us. Which is precisely why all of your “dick-waving” is pointless. The people who did this care so little about what happens to them that they were willing to sacrifice their own lives to take ours. So what makes you think that they’ll think twice about attacking us again just because we killed some of their people? *They* killed their own people. Retaliating has so little to do with “justice” or protection.
Also, what makes you think we’re the most powerful country in the world? Because we have the most toys? The most money? The most violence? The biggest egos? Because we bully people better than any country out there? Because we kill people who don’t do what we want? Because we think everyone else should do things our way, and if they don’t we’ll withold resources until they give in? That doesn’t sound like the kind of power I’d want to brag about.
The thing is, Alissa, the retaliation also has little to do with sending a message to the people who did this. It’s a message to EVERYONE. You’re right. The Taliban doesn’t care if we kill their people. They probably care that they’ve been kicked out of power, though. And anyone else who would think of attacking us now knows that if they do, we’ll fight back.
As far as what makes us the most powerful country…well, yes, all of those things you mentioned are true. It’s pretty unfair, though, to only focus on the bad things this country does, because there is an awful lot of good going on, too. The United States does a lot to help other countries, as well, although we tend to hear about that a lot less. We also do a lot to help people within our country, although, once again, we tend to hear about that a lot less than we do the bad stuff. As Nicholas said earlier, we have a lot of freedom in this country that people don’t have elsewhere. The manner in which that freedom is obtained may not always seem desirable, but the truth is that given all of the factors involved, it might be the only way of maintaining it. It may not be right, and it may not be the way we’d like to maintain it, but the alternative is to not have those freedoms, and I, personally, prefer what we’ve got. There’s so many facts that we (meaning you, me, Nicholas, and everyone else involved in this discussion) don’t have, that it is unfair of us to judge our government so harshly.
Well, if that’s the way you see it, then it’s also unfair to support and defend our government. The thing is, Darren, that so many other countries have the same freedoms that we have, yet their governments do far more for their people, and bully other people less. Our country is *so* arrogant. Why do you think people are trying to kill us and not, I don’t know, say French people? Do you really think everyone else in the world is supporting our violence because they condone it, or because they’re afraid that if they don’t support us we’ll kick the shit out of them, too? That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about – yeah, we might have their support, but it’s because we’ve beaten it out of them. Whatever, I’m not saying that there’s an easy answer to this. I just think it’s important to look at the situation critically from all aspects rather than just supporting the government blindly. I don’t know what I would do differently if it was my decision. Obviously I as an American want to be protected. I don’t know the best way to do this, but I don’t believe that bombing innocent people, or detaining 700 people for months because they “might be somehow related to this whole thing” is the answer, either.
And finally, Alissa, you and I agree. 🙂 I don’t know what the answers are, either. And I agree that it is not only our right but our responsibility to question the government. I don’t blindly support them, either. I don’t AGREE with what they are doing. But since I don’t have a better answer, I will accept what they are doing, and hope that they could possibly come up with a better solution. It’s possible that a better solution did not exist at the time. I really don’t know. I don’t like it, but I’m not about to start marching on Washington, either. I’d like to believe that they are doing the best they can.
The thing is, so many other countries ~don’t~ have the freedoms we have. I spent a summer in Ukraine, on a English teaching visa because if anyone knew I was there to teach Bible school I would have been prosecuted. And I almost was anyway. In other countries, governments own all media outlets, governments give their people no civil liberties — defined by Americans as a birthright — and governments stratify their populations into the extremely rich and the extremely poor. The few coutries that do have our freedoms and rights and liberties and opportunities have depended on our “bullying” in the past to ensure those freedoms. Governments may do more for their people in some cases, but evidence shows they also take more — more money, more privacy, more control.
I doubt that countries are supporting us because they’re afraid we might beat them. The Taliban didn’t attack France, they attacked us. I don’t think the memorials placed at American embassies around the world were placed there in fear. Other nations support us because there’s nothing that stops them from being the next target.
And, of course, what does an organization like the Taliban have to gain from attacking a country like, say France? For that matter…what does anyone have to gain from attacking France? 🙂
The point is, though, that countries less powerful than us have fewer enemies BECAUSE they’re less powerful.
HI FOLKS! hAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
hOPE YOU HAVVE A
NICE ONE.
HI FOLKS! hAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
hOPE YOU HAVVE A
NICE ONE.
HI FOLKS! hAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
hOPE YOU HAVVE A
NICE ONE.
HI THERE.HAPPY THANHKSGIVING, HOPe you have a great vacation this year. Love, Mom and Dad.
HI THERE.HAPPY THANHKSGIVING, HOPe you have a great vacation this year. Love, Mom and Dad.